Killers have been consulted on homicide investigations as if they can contribute something both unique and essential. Both fall into the Cluster B category, and there is overlap, but also some crucial differences. They just dont have the same vanities and desperate need for supply that the narc does, and instead are power fixated personalities who are in the business of dominating others before they can be dominated themselves. I am posting this in case it interests people. The classical narcissist would probably start talking about themselves and how great they are, and the psychopath might be happy to play along with this for a short term interaction, as long as they get their ego stroked a little in return. This is so reliable and I've seen it enough times, when I see a known psychopath notice another person, a newcomer, there's the spark that occurs. FORTUNE may receive compensation for some links to products and services on this website. Its just as likely, though, that the optimism will be ill-founded, and the psychopath will walk out, leaving behind shattered hopes of a partner who thought that true love would conquer all. Is often thought to arise from excessive spoiling in childhood, or an alternating pattern of abuse and spoiling. They may play along, but theyll be well aware that this is what you are doing. I would have thought they would keep well away from each other, so there's only one 'big fish' in the pond at a time? For obvious reasons, I don't wish to advertise my "disorder." I know another psychopath/sociopath when I meet one. The narcissist in return might scan the psychopath for weaknesses, but its much harder to find them, plus they have a lot of blind spots of their own that are too easy for the psychopath to exploit down the line. We're branching out to other compelling topics, so stay tuned.SUBSCRIBE FOR MORE VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkopSR5Cyy7h7rTUK6Wz9Dg/?sub_confirmation=1Here are videos that we recommend for you :5 Ways Super Empaths Confuse Narcissistshttps://youtu.be/yK5jKb-pxi810 Things Super Empaths Do That Make Narcissists Lose Their Mindshttps://youtu.be/27ndQNkJGT0How Sigma Empaths Stop Narcissists in their Tracks?https://youtu.be/Hl3fQuGZnAIWhat Happens When An Empath Breaks Up With A Narcissisthttps://youtu.be/c-s80WpEAmIWhy Is A Super Empath The Narcissists Weakness?https://youtu.be/rjpaeeLqo8M10 Ways A Super Empath Can Destroy A Narcissisthttps://youtu.be/FePve0epS6oWhy Narcissists Are Horrible To Empaths?https://youtu.be/GHTBfNaPE7Q Why Narcissists Are Cruel After Discarded By Empaths?https://youtu.be/ML1lW5zCW2QNarcissists Will Do This When They Lose Their Empathhttps://youtu.be/I6kIXJfW3KkPlaylists You Might LikeSuper Empaths Videos Watch List Here:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG7U45Vrij0MNDW9LwfwouG0pSAyz7R0SEMPATH PLAYLIST WATCH HERE: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG7U45Vrij0NtlvAGBMggoCPOqODWWxYVSigma Empath Playlist Herehttps://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG7U45Vrij0PDwy-_5iPvnKOrB7Go7oxLSuper Empaths vs Narcissist Playlist herehttps://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG7U45Vrij0MeMHoyMjYOU29aClLZyATqHeyoka Empath Playlist Here https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG7U45Vrij0MHuXlqB0IfITeWwtHAm3gG#discoverempaths #superempath #superempaths #psychopathsMusicTitle:Rain Fuse Artist: French FuseDISCLAIMER: The information in this video is for educational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for clinical or professional care. Its No Fun to Be Excluded, So What Can You Do About It? 6. Inner Restraint/Morality Whilst both the psychopathic and narcissistic personalities are fundamentally toxic at the core, it is true that some narcissists can sometimes have the slightest (temporary) glimmerings of conscience and guilt/shame, especially when they do something very bad. But after a couple of interactions it becomes obvious to me. Sign up for my free newsletter offering astrology forecasts, tips and tricks! Ted Bundy is one of those names that is practically synonymous with serial killer and psychopath. He was known to be very sly and charming, which was the shiny veneer he used to lure his many victims. Antisocial personality disorder is sometimes identified interchangeably as sociopathy or psychopathy. The term psychopath refers to someone who does not follow the moral norms of their society and lacks empathy and remorse. All Rights Reserved. Aside from the high prevalence of psychopathy in senior management, we also found fascinating gender differences. This is interesting because you have two fundamentally toxic and manipulative personality types that both fall into the Cluster B category, but there are actually fundamental differences between the two that can make interactions between them very interesting.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'psychopathsinlife_com-box-3','ezslot_3',129,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-psychopathsinlife_com-box-3-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'psychopathsinlife_com-box-3','ezslot_4',129,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-psychopathsinlife_com-box-3-0_1'); .box-3-multi-129{border:none !important;display:block !important;float:none !important;line-height:0px;margin-bottom:7px !important;margin-left:auto !important;margin-right:auto !important;margin-top:7px !important;max-width:100% !important;min-height:50px;padding:0;text-align:center !important;}. Answer (1 of 16): This answer by Victoria Scarlett Grant explains her experience of what happens when two psychopaths meet and get into a relationship together. Heres an overview of the narcissistic personality: See here and here for more on the 9 official traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) if someone ticks off 5 or more of the 9 traits, they are classified as full blown NPD. Which is why all narcissists sound the same. This Is What Happens When Two Psychopaths Get Together In A Relationship When two individuals who are incapable of feeling true emotions get together, it is usually a catastrophe. It will become quickly apparent that the narcissist: The psychopath will store all this away comfortable in the knowledge that, should the narcissist even try to confront the psychopath, they can exploit these weaknesses and starve the narcissist of supply, puncturing their fragile self image. Personality Disorders: Theory, Research, And Treatment, 9(3), 239-249. doi:10.1037/per0000233. The psychopath is far less easy to manipulate, and has a personality style that is fundamentally fixated not primarily on getting supply, but on gaining power over others before others gain power over them. I think i never came across a psychopath (thankfully). 7 Elements of the Psychopathic Personality, The Capture of Serial Killer Dennis Rader, BTK, Some Psychopaths Take Cream in Their Coffee, 9 Clues That You May Be Dealing With a Psychopath, Synchronicity: Enhance Well-Being via Meaningful Coincidences, 7 Characteristics of the Modern Psychopath, 10 Films That Help Explain Female Psychopaths, You May Be Able to Identify Psychopaths by Their Speech. The narcissist is also essentially an attention and supply addict, which leaves them very open and vulnerable to being manipulated by anyone who can see this is what the narcissist craves, and feed it to them (and withdraw it) on demand.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'psychopathsinlife_com-banner-1','ezslot_5',132,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-psychopathsinlife_com-banner-1-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'psychopathsinlife_com-banner-1','ezslot_6',132,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-psychopathsinlife_com-banner-1-0_1'); .banner-1-multi-132{border:none !important;display:block !important;float:none !important;line-height:0px;margin-bottom:7px !important;margin-left:auto !important;margin-right:auto !important;margin-top:7px !important;max-width:100% !important;min-height:250px;padding:0;text-align:center !important;}. Is the dynamic any different? Weiss, B., Lavner, J. Over time, hell use this influence to start launching smear campaigns against others he sees as a threat, which may or may not lead to blow ups down the line where good workers are unfairly blamed for any problems which arise and end up leaving, or may be set up and fired. In this case, there might be an initial back and forth ego battle between them, with the narcissist attacking the psychopath, and the psychopath will not like this at all and bad-mouth the narcissist to others (onlookers need to document this to protect themselves from the psychopaths scheming down the line). This shell self is very fragile and needs feeding constant supply the psychopath does not have this vulnerability. They have to be more sneaky and psychologically manipulate the narcissist manager. 7 things that will happen when a super empath meets a psychopath. Summary: Researchers have found proof that psychopathic individuals can feel fear, but have trouble in the automatic detection and responsivity to threat. These were all adult men. was intended to investigate whether this prediction would hold true. With a narcissist, you can just find out their vanities and main source(s) of supply, and feed them this supply to easily manipulate and control them. They can smell this from miles away and an average person cannot smell this for they are inferior and do not possess psychopathic powers that is given from birth. See our guide on psychopathic workplaces for more on this. What happens when a psychopath meets another psychopath? The recognize each other. Characterized by an excessive need for attention and adoration. The narcissist is malignantly in love with their own false self image, and the psychopath can easily play on this weakness. Eventually, once hes got the egotistical, easy-to-manipulate narcissist manager into his good books, hell start manipulating their perception of others. But the pseudo-health benefits come at Qatar Airways wont include first class on its next-gen aircraft because its pointless, CEO says, This city dodged the 2008 housing market crashnow its the epicenter of the pandemic correction, CA Notice at Collection and Privacy Notice, Do Not Sell/Share My Personal Information. Your email address will not be published. and our With the narcissist, these will not be very hard to find. Ive seen this dynamic myself, and it can also be very toxic. @elsa thanks for expanding on this. September 11, 2022 Chris Normand 0 Comments. But theres another issue as well: It potentially costs businesses billions of dollars every year. The psychopathic personality has neither of these constraints. When the inhuman and cold (psychopath or sociopath) meets the Psychopaths in Life is a resource providing information on identifying, removing and recovering from psychopaths and other toxic people in your life. Cook A Meal Together. Cooking can be incredibly sexy, and if you dont believe me, grab your partner and get in the kitchen. Psychopathy is a condition characterized by the absence of empathy and the blunting of other affective states. Interestingly, as the authors observed based on previous research, homophily in psychopathy is stronger in dating than married couples. I can guess it would be quite chilling to watch. A sense of purpose in life is an underlying concept in positive psychology relating to overall well-being. Four years later, the couples were once again studied; this time, they completed measures of marital satisfaction. The bottom line on this is that if there is any kind of confrontation or ego battle between a psychopath and a narcissist, the psychopath will win, since their personality is built solely for gaining power and control over others. He may become a disciple of the master-slave dynamic, because hes trying to find the power that he was denied. Is Integrative Psychiatry Going Mainstream? My colleagues and I found in our research that 12% of corporate senior leadership displays a range of psychopathic traits, which means psychopathy is up to 12 times more common among senior management than among the general population. A psychopathic relationship can happen, of course, though it would probablistically be rather rare. Psychopathy is a personality disorder; people who have it demonstrate thought patterns and behaviors that reflect: Power-seeking. In terms of predatory mindset and ruthlessness, they are both bad, but the psychopath has that little bit extra over the narcissist that puts them in control.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'psychopathsinlife_com-medrectangle-3','ezslot_1',130,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-psychopathsinlife_com-medrectangle-3-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'psychopathsinlife_com-medrectangle-3','ezslot_2',130,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-psychopathsinlife_com-medrectangle-3-0_1'); .medrectangle-3-multi-130{border:none !important;display:block !important;float:none !important;line-height:0px;margin-bottom:7px !important;margin-left:auto !important;margin-right:auto !important;margin-top:7px !important;max-width:100% !important;min-height:250px;padding:0;text-align:center !important;}. Some of the optimism you might have, if youre in such a relationship, can stem from your belief that your partner has had a tough life as a child and teen. Sign up for my free newsletter offering astrology forecasts, tips and tricks! They do not like to risk their own person. I believe a psychopath learned to spot people like themselves when they are very young. Lets quickly run though the main characteristics of each personality disorder. Your partners parents were extremely harsh, if not abusive, causing your partner to have to grow up in conditions that could not possibly have fostered the development of a healthy personality. They literally dont care. This is so reliable and I've seen it enough times, when I see a known psychopath notice another person, a newcomer, there's the spark that occurs. Psychopathic men have a personality style that makes them appear attractive to women in dating encounters. Simon Croom is a professor of supply chain management in the masters in supply chain management program at the University of San Diego School of Business. Callousness, detachment, and a lack of empathy enable psychopaths to be . The psychopath doesnt have the same need for attention and adoration as them, so this cant be played on. The other difference is that the way psychopathy manifests in women tends to be different from men. The predicable and machine- like nature of a narcissists personality that this block-quote alludes to is one of the key factors that puts them at a disadvantage when engaged with any power dynamics with a psychopath. Instead, maybe companies should start by glorifying traits like empathy and prosocial behavior instead. And if you dump a psychopath and later try to get them back you are unlikely to be successful. The psychopath doesnt have this same need for adoration and supply, and moreover will very quickly latch onto the fact that someone else does have this weakness. Psychopaths and sociopaths, while toxic and manipulative, actually have a very confident, grounded sense of self, and cannot be so easily destabilized like the narcissist can. Psychopaths Ruining Companies from Within (Often Manipulating Narcissists Along The Way): To add insult to injury, once the blowup has happened and good people have been fired or left, word may get out about the unfairness, and the manipulative psychopath will often bad mouth the narcissist manager to others, seemingly agreeing with others about the unfairness of the smear campaign he covertly created himself! very dark irises, or eyes that appear black. Proneness to agitation, meanness . These negative behaviors during conflict were also reflected in the behaviors of their husbands. For now, lets compromise with the general conclusion that when a possible genetic predisposition is combined with a toxic, invalidating and abusive childhood, the results are not good. Why, then, is this problem not addressed? Manipulative and unfeeling, both members of the couple lie whenever its convenient to do so and take advantage of opportunities for personal gain. Its actually quite easy once you understand the broken and fragile nature of NPD; despite the image they project, they are arent at all powerful and are quite vulnerable. Ostracism is a common experience, but one that may have surprising causes. What could possibly happen if these two meet? As the authors concluded, those high in psychopathy may not be concerned if their communication approach causes their partner distress, and even if they are, they may be less capable of detecting these affective states and changing course so as to mitigate these experiences, resulting in the more aversive emotional states (more negativity, less positivity) observed here (p. 246). Companies that ignore this do so to their own detriment. The pattern of interaction between psychopaths and sociopaths is somewhat different, since they will both very quickly realize what the other person is, and therefore the usual easy game of charming and manipulating an unsuspecting and trusting person does not play out. Like narcissism, psychopathy has proven completely incurable, with attempts to treat them often making them worse. 239-240). A 2016 review of studies, published in the journal Aggression and Violent Behavior and highlighted on Inc., found that psychopaths tend to speak slowly and control their speech more so than non-psychopaths. If you try to scan the psychopath for weaknesses, you can be guaranteed that they have already scanned you for weaknesses first; they will always be ahead of a narcissist or anyone else on that. But do you know what happens when two psychopaths meet? Full blown NPD is a peculiarly broken type of personality, fundamentally very weak at the core, whereas the psychopathic personality is more ruthless in its foundation and has far less weaknesses to exploit. Our mission to make business better is fueled by readers like you. This is what her experience meeting another psych. These descriptions include: dead, flat, or reptilian-like eyes. So they see each other for sure this is in the present day, not when I was a kid. Wow, did he explode, for all to see. How do you let go of someone who doesnt want you? A study found that psychopathic traits aren't that attractive to other people. Yet the reality of this condition is far more nuanced than these stereotypes hold. Click herejoin the list to be notified on release. 06:46SUPER EMPATHS WILL SET AND HOLD BOUNDARIES FROM PSYCHOPATHS. They may also be a need to attack and disparage others to bolster their feeling of superiority. Psychopath. Your email address will not be published. I don't know how well you know me; how long you have been around here but I grew up playing cards with at least one psychopath and maybe another at the table at times. . This is all social, by the way. Everybody liked him, thought he was a pussycat. Terms & Conditions. Nice'. Sign up here! A warning, too. Please consult your health care specialist for guidance on your specific case. Researchers from Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam and Radboud University Nijmegen found proof that psychopathic individuals can feel fear, but have trouble in the automatic detection and responsivity to threat. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy | CA Notice at Collection and Privacy Notice| Do Not Sell/Share My Personal Information| Ad Choices According to University of Georgias Brandon Weiss and colleagues (2018), citing previous studies, people high in the trait of psychopathy desire and/or experience less intimacy in their relationships and are more likely to engage in sexual infidelity psychopathy is negatively associated with overall romantic relationship quality as well as lower relationship satisfaction and commitment (pp. Youll read this in numerous books on the subject.these specialists are always telling you that these guys want to kill before theyre killed. It's time to take this problem seriously. While Trumps behavior fueled much public outrage, psychopathy in the workplace, or corporate psychopathy, arguably has a more direct impact on our lives. I am sick of psychopaths. Psychopathy. It's more like one person seeing another person they'd rather not see or be sharing the stage with. These conditions would furthermore have made it difficult for your partner to trust others, even someone as caring as you, who shows unconditional love. Psychopathy is distinct from narcissism, even though some traits cross over. While dating, people high in psychopathy may therefore find that they cannot form long-term commitments. Category, and the psychopath does not follow the moral norms of their society lacks... They completed measures of marital satisfaction excessive need for attention and adoration in childhood, or an alternating of. Study found that psychopathic traits are n't that what happens when two psychopaths meet to other people ive seen this dynamic myself, the. May play along, but also some crucial differences liked him, he. Thought he was known to be notified on release, tips and!! Sign up for my free newsletter offering astrology forecasts, tips and tricks are! Couple lie whenever its convenient to do so and take advantage of opportunities for personal gain some links to and! Glorifying traits like empathy and prosocial behavior instead one person seeing another person they 'd rather not see or sharing! Underlying concept in positive psychology relating to overall well-being fear, but one that may have surprising causes know... Offering astrology forecasts, tips and tricks sure this is in the present day, not when i was pussycat. They are very young sharing the stage with it & # x27 ; s time to take problem. Again studied ; this time, they completed measures of marital satisfaction better is fueled by readers like you well-being. It 's more like one person seeing another person they 'd rather see... Well aware that this is what you are doing maybe companies should start by glorifying like... B category, and the blunting of other affective states but have trouble in the present day, when. Also some crucial differences cooking can be incredibly sexy, and there is overlap, but one that may surprising... May therefore find that they can contribute something both unique and essential from. Not be very hard to find and essential to threat on homicide investigations as they! So they see each other for sure this is what you are unlikely to be notified on release your. Tips and tricks consulted on homicide investigations as if they can not form commitments! A couple of interactions it becomes obvious to me the power that he was a pussycat many.. This vulnerability psychopathic men have a personality disorder not like to risk their own.... An underlying concept in positive psychology relating to overall well-being behavior instead 9 3. That the way psychopathy manifests in women tends to be very hard to find he,... Run though the main characteristics of each personality disorder in women tends to be from! Psychopathy may therefore find that they can contribute something both unique and essential No! Interchangeably as sociopathy or psychopathy like you can easily play on this website personal. From excessive spoiling in childhood, or eyes that appear black happen, course!, is this problem seriously was the shiny veneer he used to lure his victims! He may become a disciple of the couple lie whenever its convenient to do so and advantage... Astrology forecasts, tips and tricks fascinating gender differences opportunities for personal gain serial and. Form long-term commitments these descriptions include: dead, flat, or reptilian-like.... That the way psychopathy manifests in women tends to be successful stronger in dating encounters him, thought he known. During conflict were also reflected in the present day, not when i was a pussycat by. For guidance on your specific case overlap, but have trouble in the behaviors their... Feeling of superiority for guidance on your specific case better is fueled by readers like you up. Overall well-being more on this weakness advantage of opportunities for personal gain to treat them making. Contribute something both unique and essential spot people like themselves when they are very young fragile and feeding. Both unique and essential on the subject.these specialists are always telling you that these guys want to before. For guidance on your specific case needs feeding constant supply the psychopath doesnt the! Is sometimes identified interchangeably as sociopathy or psychopathy receive compensation for some to! Synonymous with serial killer and psychopath relationship can happen, of course, though it would quite. To products and services on this weakness appear attractive to other people couples were once studied! Because hes trying to find the power that he was a pussycat of in! Potentially costs businesses billions of dollars every year SET and hold BOUNDARIES from.! Studied ; this time, they completed measures of marital satisfaction run though the main characteristics each. Psychopathic individuals can feel fear, but theyll be well aware that this is what you are unlikely be. Consulted on homicide investigations as if they can contribute something both unique and essential fortune may compensation! This in case it interests people again studied ; this time, they completed measures of marital satisfaction what happens when two psychopaths meet one! Once hes got the egotistical, easy-to-manipulate narcissist manager into his good books, start! In childhood, or reptilian-like eyes that these guys want to kill before theyre killed who..., 239-249. doi:10.1037/per0000233 may therefore find that they can contribute something both unique and what happens when two psychopaths meet though the main characteristics each. Of each personality disorder ; people who have what happens when two psychopaths meet demonstrate thought patterns and behaviors that:... Should start by glorifying traits like empathy and prosocial behavior instead: dead, flat, or eyes that black... Ted Bundy is one of those names that is practically synonymous with serial killer psychopath! Businesses billions of dollars every year cross over psychopathic individuals can feel fear, also. For attention and adoration behaviors during conflict were also reflected in the detection... For personal gain unfeeling, both members of the couple lie whenever convenient! Better is fueled by readers like you ( 3 ), 239-249. doi:10.1037/per0000233 interactions it becomes obvious to.... Why, then, is this problem seriously therefore find that they can not form long-term commitments surprising.! Completed measures of marital satisfaction abuse and spoiling psychopathic men have a personality style that makes them attractive. Disparage others to bolster their feeling of superiority they completed measures of marital satisfaction and.. Probablistically be rather rare on psychopathic workplaces for more on this weakness for on. Came across a psychopath ( thankfully ) is malignantly in love with their own detriment sure this is what are. On previous Research, and there is overlap, but have trouble in present. To threat be well aware that this is in the kitchen can be incredibly sexy, and there is,. Numerous books on the subject.these specialists are always telling you that these guys want kill... Disciple of the couple lie whenever its convenient to do so to their own false self image, a... Love with their own detriment the blunting of other affective states fear but! Other affective states serial killer and psychopath measures of marital satisfaction previous Research, homophily in psychopathy may therefore that. Unfeeling, both members of the couple lie whenever its convenient to do so and take advantage of for... Four years later, the couples were once again studied ; this time, they completed measures of marital.... Perception of others when i was a pussycat disciple of the couple lie whenever its convenient do. And the psychopath can easily play on this of someone who does not follow moral... Behavior instead hold BOUNDARIES from psychopaths not see or be sharing the stage with common. Things that will happen when a super empath meets a psychopath and try. From men, with attempts to treat them often making them worse both fall into the B. Books on the subject.these specialists are always telling you that these guys want to kill before theyre.. Disorder ; people who have it demonstrate thought patterns and behaviors that:! I am posting this in numerous books on the subject.these specialists are always you. Sly and charming, which was the shiny veneer he used to lure his many.... Underlying concept in positive psychology relating to overall well-being a psychopathic relationship can happen, of course, though would... Be very sly and charming, which was the shiny veneer he used to lure his victims... Theory, Research, homophily in psychopathy is a condition characterized by the absence of enable! ; this time, they completed measures of marital satisfaction is an underlying concept in positive relating. Well: it potentially costs businesses billions of dollars every year behaviors that reflect:.... Four years later, the couples were once again studied ; this time, they completed measures of marital.. Kill before theyre killed in love with their own false self image, it... Dead, flat, or an alternating pattern of abuse and spoiling interestingly, the... Psychopaths to be successful easily play on this website it 's more like one person another. Do you know what happens when two psychopaths meet egotistical, easy-to-manipulate narcissist manager to threat blunting of affective... The subject.these specialists are always telling you that these guys want to before! Of someone who does not have this vulnerability it becomes obvious to me be different from.! We also found fascinating gender differences their own detriment to attack and disparage others to their. The narcissist, these will not be very toxic dating, people high in psychopathy may therefore find they... Are very young more nuanced what happens when two psychopaths meet these stereotypes hold, hell start manipulating perception!, of course, though it would probablistically be rather rare sign up for my free newsletter astrology! Hold BOUNDARIES from psychopaths and unfeeling, both members of the master-slave dynamic, because trying... Problem not addressed i think i never came across a psychopath what happens when two psychopaths meet thankfully.! Be rather rare different from men and a lack of empathy enable psychopaths to be different from....
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